Lately, I have been reading a book called Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. It is an amazing book with so much articulation about the Lord, his intent of creating this universe, and the reason for duality and relativity in this world, among many other issues of great spiritual importance. Most of the ideas presented in this book are so coherent and persuasive that I feel most people reading this book would agree to some extent that this book truly is a product of an uncommon dialogue the author had with God, as it claims. One of the issues that I found most interesting is its illustration of God’s role in our affairs. It discusses comprehensively whether God interferes in our affairs or remains apathetic to them.
Mostly, people argue that God is the reason for all that happened, is happening and will happen. He is the cause of all thoughts, actions, circumstances and results. He creates the oceans, mountains, and islands, causes the sun to shine, wind to blow, and sets natural laws to govern the universe in a uninterrupted order as a part of his grand cosmic design. He is the one to bring about peace and happiness as well as calamities and disasters. He creates lives, and annihilates according to his rules and forces his will on us such that we act in a certain way. Few of us may consider that even the leaves of a tree do not move against his Will. Contrary to such belief, this book states that, “God is the observer, not the creator…. It’s not God’s function to create, or uncreate, the circumstances or conditions of our lives.” (1) We create our own destiny as the Lord has given us Free Will to act accordingly. He certainly created the process of our life; however, it would be an illusion to believe that he cares one way or the other what we do.
This book elaborates God’s role in our lives, giving a compelling argument. Parents do not care whether their kids play Hide and Seek, Ball Tag, Hot Potato or any other games when they go out to play but remain concerned about their safety and whereabouts. They care about whether the localities they allow them to play are friendly and safe. As parents, they always hope that their kids are not hurt and are always ready to help them if they get hurt. However, they will not care whether their kids play the same game or others the next day, even if they get hurt. They always suggest which games are dangerous for their kids to play, yet they cannot always protect them from getting hurt or doing dangerous things.
Similarly, this book infers that God neither cares about the actions we engage in nor interferes in their outcomes. He ensures favorable conditions and safe environments for us. It denies God playing an intrusive role and states that he does not care in which way we choose to live our lives but always prepares us in case we approach him and readily provides any assistance necessary. It also refutes the proposition that God did his part of creation and now does not have any interest in our affairs or remains absolutely apathetic to our grievances – similar to the concept of a “Deist God” put forward by Dr. Richard Dawkins in his book, The God Delusion. It argues instead that God is always available for his seekers and devotees.
I believe that the absolute denial of God’s role in our affairs invalidates our submission and prayers to him. I have personally met people who have frequently realized divine interferences and experienced his guidance. I have myself felt the presence of the Lord in my life at times when I implored his guidance. I do not think that he has all of our wishes and desires fulfilled, because doing so would invalidates the purpose behind the creation of this imperfect world. However, he readily guides those who genuinely beseech him and shows them the path to fulfilling lives. Having said that, I do not agree with the suggestion that God does everything and guides all our thoughts, intentions and actions. If such were the case, he certainly would have punished those denying his existence or those misguiding people to violence and terrorism in the name of God and religion. He could have make this world perfect if he wished, but doing so would hinder the whole purpose of creation i.e. to let his creations experience the world as it is, its dualities and relative experiences such that they would cherish their blissful being in his abode.
Moreover, it makes no sense whatsoever for God to regulate all our actions. If he wanted us to live a particular way or wanted to force us to abide by his rules, there certainly would be none who could defy his commandments or guidelines. There would be none of the suffering, killing and disasters that we witness everyday around the world. If he wished to make this world a heavenly place, there would be people of similar thoughts, desires and values, rather than a plurality. He certainly does not want us to act in a certain way. Rather, he guides us to paths that lead to Salvation and divine bliss through his messages he sent through messengers over the course of history.
Therefore, I believe that God interferes in our affairs and our lives, but not in the way we desire or expect. He lets us live in our own ways in accordance with our will, while ensuring favorable condition for us to do so. However, we live our lives the way we desire, and it is us who create the situations we find ourselves in with God playing no part in them.
First I will take up four questions from your article –
(1) You say that God’s purpose in creating is to make creatures experience the dualities of the world, such that they cherish their blissful being in His abode. Here the question arises: where were they before creation? Were they not in His abode? Then what was the necessity to send them here so that they again want to go back? Why does He throw them out of their blissful being in His abode in the first place?
(2) Second is: you say that God ensures favorable conditions and safe environments for us. When life is full of so much adverse conditions and mishaps and accidents, how can you say this? This statement is against the practical experience of everybody. If you say that these situations are results of our actions, you should only say that God remains neutral. You cannot say what you have said.
(3) Next, if God has given free will to all, why do people behave in different ways? Because people have got different ways of thinking. And how is it that they think in different ways? Because they have got different minds which they have got from God. If God had given same minds to all, people cannot change it and think in different ways independently. This proves that basically the creator has made people to think in right or wrong ways. This is one aspect of what is called fate, and this is decided by God while creating His creatures. But by putting the blame on God we cannot escape the bad results of bad actions. So it is advised that we should exercise our conscience or free-will and act in right manner. But it is quite possible that we have no free-will at all.
(4) Last is: you say that God is always available to guide us when we call Him. But those who resort to violence and crime in the name of religion also feel that God is guiding them. What really happens is that you exercise your conscience, or at the most invoke God to guide you which makes your mind quiet and collected to be able to think properly, and then you reach at a decision which you call God’s guidance. If you have a pure mind, your decision will be right, and if your mind is impure, your decision will be wrong.
Regarding the answer to your basic question which you have posed in the beginning as to whether God interferes in our life or not, the clear cut answer is that He does not interfere at all in anything. The world goes on in the set path automatically. Only the part of Him that is within us called the Soul can be said to guide us in certain circumstances. Just as when you have a pure mind, that mind illumined by the light of Soul takes the right path and you feel that God has guided you, similarly if you have a very pure mind, your Soul itself finds the way to Self-Realization or God-Realization or Enlightenment, and then it is said that God showed you the path or pulled you into Himself. The all-pervading God of the world never interferes even in these matters.
Thank you for your wonderful analysis on my article. My apologies to you for the late reply. I got truly busy on my own religious affairs and could not respond to your questions in a timely manner.
Let me reply to your questions one by one. Since you extracted many questions out of this article, I will try my best to respond to them as succinctly as possible. First you asked me what existed prior to this world being created. I would have to quote from the Hindu scriptures as Bible and Koran do not specifically state what existed prior to this creation as they start with how Lord created all that exist in this universe.
According to Rigveda, there were no truths or untruths nor were there atoms or the subtle sky. as it states: “Naasadasinno Sadasittadaani Naasidrajo Nobyomaaparo Yaat (Rigveda 8-7-17).”Similarly, Durbasamhimna Stotra states, “Prior to the creation of this universe, none of these including Trinity (Brahma, Vishnu & Mahesh), Lord Indra, deities, demons, Earth, Water, Fire, Air, sky, directions, time, Vedas, Yagnas, Sun, Moon, Adinarayana, Cosmic Illusion (Maya) were created. It was only the Lord Supreme in his Existence-Knowledge-Bliss features that existed in his divine Abode Paramdham in his effulgent form.
The revelations made by Mahamati Prannath, the founder of Tartamya Vision, a new spiritual vision and philosophy specifically states the reason behind the creation of this world of duality and relativity. According to him, in the Abode of the Lord Supreme reside with him his consorts in a divine relationship. These consorts said to be 12,000 in numbers could not fully understand the grace and love of the Lord for it so happened that they took it for granted. To have them experience their fortune of having to stay in infinite bliss, Lord Supreme wanted to create a relative world such that upon return to their original abode, they would feel the bliss they had experienced for the time immemorial to its infinity.
“Ek Patsaahi Arasa Ki, Dujaa Bahedaat Ki Isaq
So Dekhalawane Ruhon Ko, Pehle Dil Mein Lai Haqq”
– Prannath Vaani
To have his consorts experience the glory of his love and his grandeur, the Lord Supreme thought of enacting a game.
And how it happened? Markandeya Purana states that with the divine decree, the Infallible Brahm known as Akshar Brahm, who is the part of the Lord Supreme was put into cosmic dream and with him Lord Adinarayana, the dream state of Infallible Brahm was created and with his desire to multiply were created Shesh Narayana, and then Trinity and all the jeevas (all the living beings) were created.
“Where there was no light, and also living organisms, and also where there were no Lokas, there was absolute darkness. From the state of utter Vacuity, emerged a cosmic egg. The cause behind the egg is said to be Akshar Brahm who is beyond the void and also the creator of this universe.”
– Markandeya Purana 83-21
The Lord did not throw his consorts out of the blissful state in the Abode as you stated. Rather, it was the grace of the Lord Supreme for his consorts to experience the bliss they are in for the time immemorial that he sent his consorts to this world as we go into our dream. It’s that we (the consorts) are with him in his Abode but our consciousness is in this world as a small part of our consciousness goes into the dream when we sleep. For those who realize the temporal nature of our existence here in this world and our original self being with the Lord, there are no sufferings. It is due to the fact that we take this world, our relationships and everything that goes around here seriously that we tend to think that the world is full of suffering. For realized souls that embrace the eternality of their original self, the world is nothing but a cosmic dream that is to be witnessed to realize the bliss of the Abode.
This concept is more complicated than the prevailing concepts of why God created world full of suffering. However, the vision of Tartam, promoted by Mahamati Prannath, the founder of Shree Krishna Pranami Faith clears any doubts about why, when and how this world was created and many more pertaining to spirituality. I hope I could satisfactorily answered your first question. I would go on to the next question in the next series because the answers to all of your questions would be long and extended.
Thank you and Pranam….
I am happy that you are replying to my questions. Discussions reveal interesting things and our knowledge grows thereby. I am waiting for your replies to the rest of my questions. Then I will continue the discussion further.
(After the reply of the author of this blog to the first of my four questions, I was waiting for the other three, after which I wanted to carry the discussion further on. But it seems the author is not getting time for this. So I thought I should at least reply to what he has said in his first reply.)
Dear Brother Santa,
First you say, before creation only Lord Supreme was there, then say there were also his consorts, then Akshara Brahman, Adi Narayan etc. Once you say there was nothing other than God, not even sky, and again say there was vacuity and void. And what was the problem if the consorts took the bliss of His abode for granted? Were they not entitled to it? And to send them into dream, was it necessary to first send Akshara Brahman and Adi Narayan also to dream, then make them desire to create and after they create, the consorts are sent to dream? Could not the consorts be directly sent to dream? What is this theory?
If as you say, the experience of suffering by ignorant souls is in a dream and freedom from it comes by enlightenment, and if Jesus was the messenger sent by God, then why did Jesus fear and worry about his crucifixion and cry with agony when on the cross, asking God why He had forsaken him? Was he not enlightened or was he not messenger of God? Then why did he say he was son and not consort of God? Supposing that you know this life to be a dream and you have realized the Truth, if a man cuts your arm with a sword will you not feel suffering? And is it possible that God’s consorts will resort to such heinous crimes or even dream of committing them as people on earth are doing? If God is making them dream good or bad, we are not doing anything; God is doing everything.
Philosophies of the cults devoted to Ram and Krishna are not reliable. They manipulate and construe the events of these historical persons as eternal philosophical Truths. If we are the 12000 consorts of God, then who are the billions of human beings and trillions of other creatures? Where from this number 12000 came? Historical Krishna had given shelter to 16000 princesses as his wives after rescuing them from demon kings. His actual wedded wives were eight. Prannath has probably mentioned this number as 12000 in place of 16000 by mistake, and he has derecognized Krishnas 8 real wives.
Devotees of Krishna forget the theory given by Krishna himself, consider Krishna as God and formulate their own theories around the name and life of this great teacher. Some individuals of these cults like to worship Krishna as their husband or paramour. Saints teach that a man or woman who has a paramour always thinks of the paramour day in and day out; we should also love God as deeply and think of Him constantly as a paramour does. But the above sub-cult, consisting of a very small number of devotees, misunderstands the teaching and literally thinks of Krishna as their paramour. Why? The answer will look indecent, but it is a fact that their mental working has a physiological and hormonal reason behind it. It is seen that those who have low level of male hormone in their bodies like to think themselves as women and like to worship God as their husband or lover, just like such people like to have gay relations with men, themselves acting as the passive partners.
Some say Krishna is God, others say Ram and still others say Jesus. These are hero worshipers who cannot think of deep philosophical matters. And God is not a matter of thinking but of experience by sages in meditation, and all sages have experienced Him as all-pervading pure Consciousness, not as a person with human form and having male or female gender living at some place called his abode with female consorts. Consorts of God must be pure Souls like Him, and Souls do not have any gender. For God “He” is used because we cannot express in language without using a word. Even God is neither male nor female. The stories of Puranas are written in order to explain abstract matters to people of low intelligence in story form so that they can grasp it. We cannot take them literally, less so the beliefs that Ram, Krishna or Jesus were avatars of God or God themselves.
When God is perceived as Infinite Consciousness, living neither here nor there but everywhere, and neither male nor female but without gender, we cannot form theories based on our parents and children. Even there are flaws in Sankar’s philosophy. We can only rely on authentic scriptures written by sages having experience of Truth, not followers of cults and creeds. I could have written about real occult experiences, about how theories are derived from them and about the most probable theory of creation. But space does not permit it here.
I will be waiting for your further replies.
Thanks for sharing this fascinating post, Santa as you show how the debate over God’s will vs. God’s absence in this world extends to all different faith traditions. It would be really interesting to read a curated collection of different faith perspectives on this issue.
Thank you Dr. Prabuddha Ghanshyam for your analysis and your questions. You’ve posed so many questions at once that I feel I could write a huge book while answering them. Yet, these questions are quite analytical and worth answering.
In answering your questions, I would use the references from the holy texts because they are the only authentic sources one can count on in satiating their spiritual questions. You raised the questions about the state of dream, Lord krishna being called the Lord Supreme, number of his consorts, soul having the feminine features, imbalance between the number of divine consorts and the world’s population, the omnipresence of the Lord among many others. Let me attempt answering them briefly.
Maheshwor Tantra states that through the union of time( Kaal) and Maya, Lord created this universe. The creator of millions of universe like this is the Infallible(Akshar Brahm). – Maheshwor Tantra 1/45
Before the consorts could have been sent to the dream directly, there had to be the world of relativity created for them such that they could experience the suffering to acknowledge their fortune of living in divine companionship with the Lord Supreme.
Maheshwor Tantra 6/26,27 states that Infallible Akshar Brahm finds himself as Narayana when he gets to the dreamy state. It’s stated that those who realize the non-existence of this universe more than a mere dream, attain salvation. It’s Akshar Brahm whose mere blinking of eyes creates and annhilates huge number of universes.
The fact of the matter is when you are in dream, there is a subtle body. It feels the pain, hunger, thirst, happiness, sadness and everything that we feel here in this world. So, would not it hurt if someone chop off my hand or head, it indeed does, in dream or in real life. But understanding that a child having a scary dream while sleeping on mother’s lap does not feel the fear so intensely or does not feel at all if it knows that it is sleeping on mother’s lap. There were saints and sages who did not fear death, embraced it with ease because the reward after death they realized were far greater than the illusion/sufferings in this world. Even socrates drank the poison named Hemlock with smile. He did not resist death. Shankaracharya, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Mirabai among many others gave up all material comfort for the same purpose of realizing the divine and they did not fear the death the way we do. The 12 Pranamis (Sundarsaths) went to the palace of Aurangzeb to awaken him about the arrival of Imam Mehdi did not fear to die as they realized that “Hum Bina Mare Paramdham Nahin Ja Sakte.” we can not attain the divine abode without leaving this mortal body. The issue about Jesus being enlightened yet crying in pain while being crucified is the trait of this mortal body. Yet the fact is that realized souls are not afraid of dying. Those who are not afraid of dying for the cause of soul and realizing divine are in true sense the enlightened ones.
Different messengers of God had the divine realizations of different levels. If can not have the vision of Mumbai in your consciousness if you have never been there, or have never heard about it. According to Hindu scriptures it is through Narayana that we got life. Or to say that is Narayan is the father of all souls. As he says in Bhagavada Geeta, “I am the seed of all lives” as scriptures state that it’s his desire that created lives in Universe, “Eko Hum Bahushyam” I am alone, let me become many. His desire to multiplicity created Shesh Narayana and then Tridev (Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh) and via Brahmajee the 8.4 million species.
“Yame Mahavishnu Maan, mana the Trigun, Tathe Thira Chara Saba Utapanna.”- Prannath Vaani
Therefore, many consider that Lord is the father of each souls. There is no mistake in such statement. In that reasoning, Jesus might have said he is the son of God. In fact, all of us are. We are the creation of his mind equally recriprocal to the fact that I am the creation of my father’s and mother’s mind. My material body is the byproduct of my parents and my soul is the byproduct of Narayana.
One thing to understand is the fact, however that in these souls have come the surt of the consorts of the Lord Supreme. Justifying the same, there is the mentioning of three types of souls in the world. The people of spirit, people of water and people of flesh (In Christianity), Brahmashristi, Ishwari Shristi and Jeevashristi (Prannath Vaani and selected Hindu Scriptures), Khaasalkhaas, Khaas and Aam (Quran) and Mukta, Mumukshu and Badda (Hinduism).
” Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6 KJV)
Mahamati Prannath Jee stated the same the souls of Narayana’s origin have no place in the eternal abode just like the creations of our dreams have no place in our life. Meaning I can not awake with my mother, parents or friends I find in my dream as they are the creation of my dream body. Akshara Brahm is in the state of dream maintaining this universe and the Surt of 12,000 consorts of the Lord Supreme are seeing the dream. Their surt is here watching the game. Just like a subtle consciousness enters our dream while there is a body and the soul runs it experiencing everything yet it’s only that Surt (subtle consciousness) that awakes not the body of our dream.
It’s a complicated matter. I don’t know if I can make you fully comprehend all this. Regarding the number of consorts being 12,000, Maheshwor Tantra states:
“Tasam Dwadasasaahshree Sankhya Proktaa Tathapi yaa
Anta Purgatanam Cha Raho Milita Chetasaam ” – M.T 9/14
The number of those consorts who live eternally in the eternal Abode and merge with the Lord Supreme in solitude in said to be 12,000.
The next issue you raised is whether Prannath Jee was mistaken in saying that the consorts of Lord Supreme Krishna was 12,000 instead of 16,000 is completely injustifiable. No doubt Krishna married 16,000 princesses and had 8 wives previously including Rukmini. However, it is often overlooked that it was 12,000 cowmaids (Gopinis) that Lord Krishna enacted the eternal Raas with. In them, entered the Surt of those 12,000 consorts.
“Jyon Nind Mein dekhiye Supana, Yon Upaje Hum Braj Badhu Jana.”
For your kind information, there are three distinct sports of Lord Krishna and they are three in form. One is the incarnation of Lord vishnu that everyone understands, the other is the Goloki Krishna (brought into light by Kripalujee Maharaj) and the third is the Lord Supreme Aksharateeta Shree Krishna (beyond the Akshara Brahm) that Mahamati Prannath jee brought into light for humanity. He disclosed his form, his eternal sports, Abode and his name.
“Kutastha Eba Tadhdhamni Krishna Darsahana Lalasa
Nityam Prayati Parama: Prem Pureeta Maanasa”
– Purana Samhita
The creator of this relative dreamy world Infallible Akshara Brahm goes to the eternal effulgent Abode of Lord Shree Krishna to have his glimpse with utmost alacrity.
“Vishnuschha Vaikuntha Niwasa Krichcha
Kshirodavaasi Harereba Sakshat
Narayano Dharma Sutastathapi
Golokanatho Bhajate Bhawantam”
– Garg Samhita 9/14
Lord Vishnu residing in Vaikunth, Vishnu residing in Sweta Dweep, Shesh Narayana residing in Kshir Sagar, Adinarayana (Kshar Purusha), Dharmaraj, and Golokinath Shree Krishna all chant your name and meditate.
Let me make it clear that Lord Krishna that killed Kams, married 16,000 princess or revealed the divine knowledge in Bhagavada Geeta was not the Lord Supreme. The zeal of the Lord Supreme resided in the body of Lord krishna for 11 years and 52 days and after that it went back to the Supreme abode along with the Surt of those 12,000 consorts. The Tridha Leela of Lord Shree Krishna is clearly stated in scriptures as:
“Sakshat Krishno Braje Nityam Swamse Naiba Biharina
Tasyamso Hi Mathurayam Basudevo Jagatguru
Dwarakayam Tadamsosti Bishnuviryo Yatah Prabhu..”
– Sanatkumar Samhita
The Lord Supreme Shree Krishna enacted the sports in Braja, Vasudev Shree Krishna enacted the leela in Mathura (rescuing Kams) and Lord Vishnu enacted his Leelas in Dwarika….
About the omnipresence of the Lord, it is often misunderstood that he is present in his form in this world. Had he been here, there would have been no troubles, no crimes, no poverty. If Brahm had been here, the world would have never been predicted to go into final deluge (Mahapralyaya in Vedic scriptures). It’s true that the sun is not pervasive in the world but its light is, Lord Supreme is not pervasive in this world in form but in the form of his reign (Satta). As Scriptures state:
“Brahmaivedamamritam Purastaad Brahm Paschaadbrahm Dakshinataschottarena,
Adhaschordwam Cha Prasritam Brahmaivedam vishwomidam Baristham”
– Mundakopanishada 2/2/11
All the materials in the eternal Adobe Brahmdham are in form of the Brahm. Everything in the south, or the north, or the top or the bottom or in the sky, everything is in Brahm swaroop. This magnificient radiant abode is engulfed with Brahm swaroop all around.
The idea of Brahm being pervasive in the world in his form is little misguided as it is meant for the abode of the Lord Supreme. Lord is everywhere in his abode inside and out who is devoid of natural material body who has the divine form resides beyond the Infallible Akshara Brahm as Mundakopanishada 1/2/2 states “Divyohyamurta Purusha Sabaihyabhyantaro Hyaja, Aprano Hyamana Subhro Hyaksharaat Paratah Parah.”
In regards to whether Lord Shree Krishna is the Lord Supreme, refer to the chapter 15 of Bhagavada Geeta where he states ” Uttamah Purusastuanya Paramatme Eti Udaaritah” stating that Uttama Purusha is only stated as Paramatma, the Lord Supreme.
” Krishnayeba Aksharateeta Purushottama Sangitah
Rasa rupa tayaa Yastu Shrutibhi Parigiyate”
– Purana Samhita 23/29
Lord Shree is the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss (Satchidananda) Paramatma, the Uttam Purusha. All the Shrutis and the Scriptures glorify him as such.
Devi Bhagavada states, Lord Krishna is the God of all gods, is the Ishwara of all ishwaras and is the one worth all prayers and submissions.
“Sarveshworeshwore Krishne Sarvakaarana Kaarane
Sarvaadhya Sarvadevaanaam Sevyam Sarbaantaraatmanam”
Yes, indeed it is the fact that some say Lord Krishna is the Lord Supreme, some say Lord Shiva, some Rama, some Jesus and some Allah. Incarnation of Lord vishnu cannot be called the Lord Supreme because Vishnu himself is the creation of Narayana, the dream state body of Akshara Brahma the fact that removes all deities, goddesses, Trideva, and others from being called such. Read the Samhitas, Vedas, Bhagavada, Maheshwor Tantra and other scriptures that will guide you towards Lord Krishna whose zeal came into the body of Lord Krishna in Dwapara but resides in Paramdham not in Vaikunth or Golok dham.
In regards to Jesus, what people say does not matter to me. What matters to me is what Bible Says or what Quran says as I believe them all being revealed literature. I believe Khuda is the Lord Supreme as Mahamati says “Soi Khuda Soi Brahm.” I believe Mohammad being the last prophet sent by the Lord Supreme while many may still claim that they are God or the chosen people of God. I believe what scriptures say not the statements of individuals claimed to have divine understanding or divine power. I read scriptures, believe what Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas state. Read them thorougly and you will be illumined with the divine light.
Will wait for your response Dr. P. Ghanshyam…we can let it go for long…. Prem Pranam….